Question about an Excalibur page - Meggan & Captain Britain.

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captain616
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Question about an Excalibur page - Meggan & Captain Britain.

Post by captain616 »

Dear Alan,

I was wondering if I might, if it's not too much to ask, ask you a question about a panel you drew for Excalibur, back in the 80s. It's during the period where Brian Braddock is grieving from (What he believes is) the death of his sister.

Image

There has been quite a lot of discussion on another Comics forum recently about this image, and I wonder if you might be willing to clear something up. Could I ask, when you were drawing this page, what your intention was for this panel? Was it to show

a) Brian throwing his mask down in frustration at not being able to save his own sister.

or

b) That Brian is trying to hit Meggan.

There has been quite a bit of discussion on this of late. I know how I have always interpreted it, myself. But I would be interested to hear for sure, from yourself.

Thanks very much

Mark Roberts.
(Captain616)
Ilke
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Re: Question about an Excalibur page - Meggan & Captain Brit

Post by Ilke »

Mark, I apologize in advance for offering my 2 cents when this question was posed to Alan, but I don't see Brian trying to hit Meggan in that panel.

If you look at the full page...

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiec ... GSub=12156

...in panel 2, it's established that Brian is holding a bottle in his left hand, and that his helmet is atop a box. By panel 4, Brian still has the bottle in his left hand. In panel 5, Brian has thrown that bottle in the direction of his helmet, making impact with the helmet and splitting the bottle.

In panel 5, the arc of the motion lines of Brian's left arm indicate that his swing begins at his left buttock (also the approximate positioning of the bottle in panel 4), and continues up and away from Meggan.

Ilke (this is when I make a pun and put on my sunglasses to prompt the opening credits of...CSILKE)
captain616
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Re: Question about an Excalibur page - Meggan & Captain Brit

Post by captain616 »

For the record, Ilke, I absolutely agree. I do not believe that there is any intent towards striking Meggan. It would be completely out of character, even with the booze in his system.

Unfortunately, a fair few posters online, mostly over the past couple of years, have started to use this panel (And in isolation, not the whole page) as 'evidence' that Brian hits Meggan, and that his relationship with her is an abusive one. I find that notion ridiculous. I guess I am hoping that Mr Davis might be able to clarify that, mostly to write a few wrong believers in what appears to have become a bit of an internet comics urban myth.

The full page is often also used to back up the claim that Brian is an alcoholic. Something which has never directly been stated in panel. Arguably implied by Terry Kavanagh, during an Excalibur fill in issue, but I dearly hope that it is never fully established in canon.

I often think that American readers in particular misunderstand the British convention of social drinking. While it IS clear to me that harder spirits disagree with Brian (He doesn't like the kind of drunk he can become) I don't think that, given the number of times he has been seen drinking beer socially over the years, that he could be seen to be an alcoholic.

For one thing, when Brian was quizzed by Nightcrawler about his sorrowful drinking in Excalibur, Brian stopped. Stopped dead in fact. Alcoholics usually CANNOT stop. By that point it has become a much stronger compulsion. They lose that element of control.
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Re: Question about an Excalibur page - Meggan & Captain Brit

Post by Alan Davis »

I think Ilke is exactly right, Mark. There was never any implication of violence towards Meggan. Why anyone should want to take a panel out of context to prove such a stupid theory baffles me. Brian was always a temperamental guy-- self centred, clumsy, egotistical, arrogant, confused, angry—but totally devoted to Meggan-- and never an alcoholic.
Alan
Icon-UK
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Re: Question about an Excalibur page - Meggan & Captain Brit

Post by Icon-UK »

Not a full blown alcoholic, no, and I certainly didn't read the scene above that way, but Brian has admitted to an alcohol problem, specifically in the generally very enjoyable Warren Ellis "Excalibur go to the pub for a night out" issue (Worth it just too read Moira MacTaggarts accent getting more and more incomprehensible as she gets drunker)

Someone, Douglock I think, asks Brian why humans drink something which is chemically a poison for pleasure, and Brian replies that he doesn't really understand it either, but that he knows he has had problems with alcohol in the past and so sticks to soft drinks.
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Re: Question about an Excalibur page - Meggan & Captain Brit

Post by Alan Davis »

And Betsy Braddock is oriental.
Stuart Vandal
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Re: Question about an Excalibur page - Meggan & Captain Brit

Post by Stuart Vandal »

Icon-UK wrote:Not a full blown alcoholic, no, and I certainly didn't read the scene above that way, but Brian has admitted to an alcohol problem, specifically in the generally very enjoyable Warren Ellis "Excalibur go to the pub for a night out" issue (Worth it just too read Moira MacTaggarts accent getting more and more incomprehensible as she gets drunker)

Someone, Douglock I think, asks Brian why humans drink something which is chemically a poison for pleasure, and Brian replies that he doesn't really understand it either, but that he knows he has had problems with alcohol in the past and so sticks to soft drinks.
Brian isn't an alcoholic, full-blown or otherwise. His only problem is that, like many people, it enhances the mood he is in, so when he's unhappy it makes him worse. For someone with superhuman strength, not having full control of your emotions and actions is a bad thing, something Brian came to realise, so he moderates his drinking these days. The scene you mention doesn't suggest Brian's past problem with alcohol is being alcoholic, e.g. unable to stop or moderate his drinking - if that was the case, he'd be stupid to go hang out in a pub, where the sight and smell are all around and the booze is close to hand. His problem was that he can be a poor drunk. And if you doubt that's what the scene was showing, look a few issues later when the same writer has Brian drink alcohol in a toast when he joins the Hellfire Club, then go back to not drinking. Alcoholics can't have just one drink, and if Brian even thought he was one, he wouldn't risk a drink.
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Re: Question about an Excalibur page - Meggan & Captain Brit

Post by Icon-UK »

Alcoholism comes in many shades, it's not always about not being able to stop drinking, though that is perhaps the most severe situation, it's about alcohol becoming something you depend on too much, it can be drinking too much, or drinking at the wrong time, or not being able to NOT take a drink, or relying on it to get you through times it might be better, if not easier, to deal with sober. Brian has done this a time or two, usually when dealing with loss.

And again, I'm not saying Brian is an alcoholic in the way you seem to imply, but he is aware that when he does start drinking at times he doesn't limit himself the way he should, so he tries to avoid it. Many people do.

Some alcoholics CAN have one drink, though it's true that some can't, it's by no means an absolute condition, and varies from situation to situation too. In the Hellfire Club scene you mention, Brian was in full control of his faculties, is in a fairly stable place emotionally, knows it's a one-drink situation, and he had a mission to perform which other people were relying on him to deal with (and is surrounded by people who would cheerfully kill him if it suited their ends). That's not the same as attempting to drown his sorrows at home, after the loss of his twin sister.

Plus, of course, visiting a pub does not equate to drinking alcohol, as several of the members of the team point out; Brian chooses not to drink, Douglock can't see the point (A POV as a lifelong teetotaller I personally share) and Rahne is teetotal by upbringing, and is somewhat shocked at being offered a soft drink in a pub as it hadn't really occurred to her you could DO that. And in any event, denying yourself the normal social interaction you can enjoy at a pub would be foolish and possibly counter-productive.

And you might be surprised at the number of recovering alcoholics who make a living in the pub trade, since it is the ultimate test of will, and as someone who has worked for a pub company, I'm speaking from some personal awareness there.

Edit - Boy that came out a lot more soap-box-y than I intended, sorry about that.
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Re: Question about an Excalibur page - Meggan & Captain Brit

Post by Stuart Vandal »

Icon-UK wrote:Alcoholism comes in many shades, it's not always about not being able to stop drinking, though that is perhaps the most severe situation, it's about alcohol becoming something you depend on too much,
Not something we've seen with Brian.
Icon-UK wrote: it can be drinking too much, or drinking at the wrong time,
If you take that at the strict definition, then virtually anyone who has ever had an alcoholic beverage would qualify. If you mean doing either of those on a repeated or regular basis, then Brian doesn't fit those definitions either.
Icon-UK wrote: or not being able to NOT take a drink,
Never seen to be a problem - he's always shown the ability to stop drinking cold.
Icon-UK wrote: or relying on it to get you through times it might be better, if not easier, to deal with sober. Brian has done this a time or two, usually when dealing with loss.
Again, if you think doing this a couple of times qualifies as making someone an alcoholic, then the vast majority of people who aren't teetotal would qualify as alcoholics. If, as would be a more reasonable argument, someone has to do this repeatedly or regularly to qualify, then Brian doesn't fit the profile.
Icon-UK wrote: And again, I'm not saying Brian is an alcoholic in the way you seem to imply, but he is aware that when he does start drinking at times he doesn't limit himself the way he should, so he tries to avoid it. Many people do.
Yes, many do. Someone doesn't need to be an alcoholic to realise that they should moderate their drinking because over indulging is bad for you - in fact, that's pretty much the definition of every non-alcoholic. It's not that Brian doesn't moderate himself when he starts drinking; the vast majority of the time he has and does. The trouble is that many readers, and not a few writers, fail to grasp subtleties; they see a character really drunk one time, and immediately that character must have a drinking problem, which is why a couple of fill-in writers perpetuated the misinterpretation of the scene that started this debate by adding scenes like the one you claim suggests a drinking problem. However, other, usually more long-term writers, including Brian's most recent scribe Paul Cornell, have made it clear the Brian doesn't have a problem, and Alan has confirmed above that the scene generally used as the main evidence and which was the genesis of this claim was not intended to suggest that.
Icon-UK wrote:Some alcoholics CAN have one drink, though it's true that some can't, it's by no means an absolute condition, and varies from situation to situation too. In the Hellfire Club scene you mention, Brian was in full control of his faculties, is in a fairly stable place emotionally, knows it's a one-drink situation, and he had a mission to perform which other people were relying on him to deal with (and is surrounded by people who would cheerfully kill him if it suited their ends). That's not the same as attempting to drown his sorrows at home, after the loss of his twin sister.
True that it isn't the same as watching your twin sister, the person you are closest to in the whole world, die on television (remember, her demise was televised), with you powerless to save her. Under those kind of circumstances the vast majority of people would be in the same kind of emotional state Brian is, even without alcohol. As for the Hellfire Club scene, yes, Brian is in full control of his faculties, but stable emotional place? He's only just recovered from his jaunt through the time stream, and he's under major stress, going back into costume knowing that if he fails the world is literally going to H***. He might not be grieving, but it is the kind of situation where it would be all to easy to fall into "taking another just to steady my nerves" where he inclined to drink. As for alcoholics taking just one drink, yes, I know some who might manage it, but I know none who would risk it; the inability to stop once they started is why they are alcoholics. So my point stands; if Brian thought of himself as an alcoholic, would he really risk that the one drink would cause him to fall off the wagon and thus risk the fate of the world? That he felt he was confident he could take just one suggests he doesn't view himself that way.
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Re: Question about an Excalibur page - Meggan & Captain Brit

Post by Icon-UK »

Again, you're making rather sweeping assumptions about alcoholism as a condition. There IS no "strict definition" of what counts as alcoholism. Yes, many people go through instances some of what I cited now and again, but in the case of someone with an alcohol problem, it's not "now and again", it's a pattern of behaviour.

Do I think Brian is an alcoholic in the sense you seem to assume it means? No.

Do I think he's had enough problems with alcohol in his past to go out of his way to avoid where he has a choice to. Yes, and we have the evidence to prove it.
Stuart Vandal
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Re: Question about an Excalibur page - Meggan & Captain Brit

Post by Stuart Vandal »

Icon-UK wrote:Again, you're making rather sweeping assumptions about alcoholism as a condition. There IS no "strict definition" of what counts as alcoholism. Yes, many people go through instances some of what I cited now and again, but in the case of someone with an alcohol problem, it's not "now and again", it's a pattern of behaviour.

Do I think Brian is an alcoholic in the sense you seem to assume it means? No.

Do I think he's had enough problems with alcohol in his past to go out of his way to avoid where he has a choice to. Yes, and we have the evidence to prove it.
I'd agree that he has made his decision to avoid alcohol, but not that we have any pattern of behavior to suggest alcoholism, even in the much more general terms you use for labelling someone with the term. A couple (literally that, all of two times) that he's been seen to drink heavily while under exceptional stress, only one of which where he got seriously drunk, both times stopped cold without any problems doing so. Twice is not a pattern; they are exceptions to his normal behaviour, both before and after he decided to stop drinking.
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Re: Question about an Excalibur page - Meggan & Captain Brit

Post by Alan Davis »

And our favourite purple follicled English rose is still an Elektra inspired Ninja. The point being different creators have different opinions, change happens. Take your pick.
I’ve stated categorically that I don’t think Brian was (or ever should be) an alcoholic but I have been in disagreement with writers who wanted to apply that particular cliché in the hope of making him more ‘interesting’. But as Ralph said of Agent Maxwell, "some people need to get the labels on early to keep up in a discussion”... or something like that.
It seems to me that quoting the gospel according to a preferred writer with evangelical zeal will inevitably result with a panel from a comic page being taken out of context (as in the first post of this thread) to rewrite history to defend a creed. Anyone that devoted should be aware that the Cross-time special is leaving Euston at 9-45 so don’t be late or you’ll miss all those carriage numbers.
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Re: Question about an Excalibur page - Meggan & Captain Brit

Post by Icon-UK »

It seems to me that quoting the gospel according to a preferred writer with evangelical zeal will inevitably result with a panel from a comic page being taken out of context (as in the first post of this thread) to rewrite history to defend a creed

This is, of course, true, and I offer my apologies if it came across like that, not my intention (well, not deliberately at any rate). I cited the pub issue in particular as it was the only instance I could think of where Brian actually discusses his personal attittude to alcohol at all, as opposed to us seeing it's impact on him at certain times in his life.

Different writers = Different folks = Different strokes => Move the world
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Re: Question about an Excalibur page - Meggan & Captain Brit

Post by Alan Davis »

Accepted.

Alan
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