THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

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Alan Davis
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Post by Alan Davis »

Otherwise, Mr. Davis owes each one of his readers an apology to be delivered in person at each one's door (and with some flowers, red roses if possible).
Don't waste any cash buying a rose bowl. But I like your style.

This is my opinion, and also Pedro´s. Mr Davis has faced it with a mix of humor and rage and everything inbetween.
I object to the characterisation that I have reacted with rage-- Humour, sarcasm and bluntness, yes, because that seemed appropriate. Pedro’s first post, a boastful and inaccurate declaration, was followed by rambling pettiness, peppered with weak jokes and emoticons that did nothing to disguise his bitterness at the inevitable evolution of the industry and his snide attacks on everyone who doesn’t agree with him, from myself to Dan Didio(!?).

Pedro’s constantly repeated error is that my use of the Sphinx was mistaken. I have tried to make clear in earlier postings that I made a deliberate choice which plays into a long story I am currently working on BUT, even if that does not work out, I believe using the Sphinx as I did can be justified in any number of ways. Creativity is about spinning things in an unexpected way. Not by endlessly tying the same loose ends.
mrshortt1977
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Location: Manchester, UK

Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Post by mrshortt1977 »

Moreover, this is ALAN DAVIS' FORUM. Check the URL. I do believe that everyone's entitled to their opinion and indeed fan debate is one of the most fun things about being a comic book geek. But for Heaven's sake would you show some respect to the guy? I'm sure the first poster mentioned at some point a 'Marvel Continuity Project' or something similar - why don't you go to their forums and complain? Furthermore, as someone who claims to revere the 'old' Marvel tradition you'll surely remember No-Prizes then? They were awarded to people who spotted mistakes or flaws in Marvel stories (continuity, artwork, plot etc) and then proposed a reasonable explanation of their own. As in, the opposite of what you're doing. Sneering and finger-wagging at a gentleman who over the past 20-30 years has worked his arse off for the industry we all love so much makes it seem a bit like sour grapes but then I'm sure Mr. Angosto hasn't got a creative bone in his body. I'm sorry but this sort of thing makes my blood boil.

Matt
PEDRO ANGOSTO
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:47 am

Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Post by PEDRO ANGOSTO »

[>quote][/quote]Pedro’s first post, a boastful and inaccurate declaration, was followed by rambling pettiness, peppered with weak jokes and emoticons that did nothing to disguise his bitterness at the inevitable evolution of the industry and his snide attacks on everyone who doesn’t agree with him, from myself to Dan Didio(!?).
Alan, I don't know what problem you have with emoticons, or why you think you use "humour" and I have only weak jokes. Seems to me exactly the other way around. :)

Now, I'm quite certain that I haven't "attacked" you. To this moment, I have only pointed a continuity mistake -due to a lack of research that you have recogniced-, have explained why your views about the story and how it works are not good enought -due, again, to some erroneous ideas about Rama-Tut's origin and chronology-, and exposed my own ideas about how continuity works, and why I think writers should read some comics and do some research about the characters they are going to use (or at least have a good "continuity cop" do that for them).
Pedro’s constantly repeated error is that my use of the Sphinx was mistaken. I have tried to make clear in earlier postings that I made a deliberate choice which plays into a long story I am currently working on BUT, even if that does not work out, I believe using the Sphinx as I did can be justified in any number of ways. Creativity is about spinning things in an unexpected way. Not by endlessly tying the same loose ends.
I think is still wrong with the info that the story and YOU gave me. Are you missleading me, like in your first post?

Anyway, just for the record, your Sphinx is not a problem to me, I already suggested how all that can fit. Now, to me is far more important your erroneous conception about continuity:

My point is that any attempt to establish exact continuity is nonsense.

I think it should be crystal clear, but anyway, continuity MUST BE EXACT, or is of no use at all. Can be changed, can be further explained, but if we don't agree in what has happened, a continuity open to particular interpretations won't last two months.

About my comments concerning Mr. Didio, they will surely be absolutly mysterious to somebody who doesn't reads -suffers- current DC Comics like you. Let's just say that in this week "Lying in the Gutters" they say how he's still making Grant Morrison crazy with rewrites of the veeeeeeeeeery late Final Crisis # 7 and he just had a big argument with James Robinson that made him leave Superman. I think Chuck Dixon hit the bullseye with his comments about him. Anyway, among many other creative and personal issues, he has no absolute idea about how continuity works and how to stablish one. I can say that because I read lots of DC Comics monthly.

By the way, some guys in Spain are having real fun with this debate, and my "weak jokes", check me being rejected by the Legion of Super-creators, Alan-Lad :) :)

http://blog.adlo.es/
PEDRO ANGOSTO
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:47 am

Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Post by PEDRO ANGOSTO »

>"
Furthermore, as someone who claims to revere the 'old' Marvel tradition you'll surely remember No-Prizes then?
Are you reading what is being written here???????' I gave Alan his No-Prize in my second post, after he took the easy way out... And I already gave my opinion on how all this can fit in Marvel Continuity.
> but then I'm sure Mr. Angosto hasn't got a creative bone in his body.
Mr. Angosto has lots of creative bones and will make soup with them in due time, just to prove that Mr. Davis doesn't know my future as he seems to claim. Again, I'm the only one with pre-cog powers here. Nya-ha-ha-ha-ha! :evil:

>
I'm sorry but this sort of thing makes my blood boil.
Well, read the whole thing. And would be very nice if you get to know me before making judgements about my skills. Thank you.
Alan Davis
Creator
Posts: 472
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Post by Alan Davis »

I'm sorry but this sort of thing makes my blood boil.
Thanks for the support Matt but, as you can see, irrational certitude is impervious to logic and sanity. In my experience an incoherent rant will burn itself out more quickly without opposition to fuel it-- And I’m confident that the posts I have already made will be sufficient for any rational person who has time to read this thread.

Alan
PEDRO ANGOSTO
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:47 am

Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Post by PEDRO ANGOSTO »

Alan Davis wrote:
I'm sorry but this sort of thing makes my blood boil.
Thanks for the support Matt but, as you can see, irrational certitude is impervious to logic and sanity. In my experience an incoherent rant will burn itself out more quickly without opposition to fuel it-- And I’m confident that the posts I have already made will be sufficient for any rational person who has time to read this thread.

Alan

The "I've run of weak arguments and stil don't want to admit what I did wrong, so YOU MUST BE CRAZY" defence... That is indeed a great example of an adult discussion...

Hope that next time you draw Arkham Asylum, you'll put me there in a cell, just next to Psycho-Pirate II, so we can chat about our things, you know...? :)
mrshortt1977
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:06 pm
Location: Manchester, UK

Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Post by mrshortt1977 »

Alan Davis wrote:
I'm sorry but this sort of thing makes my blood boil.
Thanks for the support Matt but, as you can see, irrational certitude is impervious to logic and sanity. In my experience an incoherent rant will burn itself out more quickly without opposition to fuel it-- And I’m confident that the posts I have already made will be sufficient for any rational person who has time to read this thread.

Alan
Agreed. Next topic... Anybody, please...!
bignige
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:42 pm

Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Post by bignige »

PEDRO ANGOSTO wrote:>"
Mr. Angosto has lots of creative bones and will make soup with them in due time.
Is this one of your bones?

http://uk.comics.ign.com/articles/647/647039p1.html

Round Table of America: Personality Crisis #1 - $3.50
Written by Pedro Angosto
Art by Carlos Rodriguez
10-second Review: The title is the only clever thing about this terribly unfunny book. Woo-hoo a 22-page homage to event books. It's not entertaining, it doesn't even try to be funny (I hope they aren't trying anyway) and the storytelling is abysmal. One of the worst books I've read this year. - Hil
PEDRO ANGOSTO
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:47 am

Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Post by PEDRO ANGOSTO »

Yeah, the comic is mine. The review isn't. Nor is this one... :)

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=21365
Alan Davis
Creator
Posts: 472
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Post by Alan Davis »

Is this one of your bones?
Round Table of America: Personality Crisis
Game, set and match, Bignige. Nicely done.
Agreed. Next topic... Anybody, please...!
Matthew, Here’s something that may have been overlooked as it was posted in OTHER. In the same vein as ‘Marvel Time’ but well considered and informative.
by Enda80 on Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:34 pm
Does this story involve time travel? If not, I find it interesting that they so boldly showed the Asgardians so far back. Most flashback stories involving the Asgardians on Earth or referencing Earth take place around 1000 CE.

Rhe earliest references to Thor, Baldur, Woden, etc. occur in the Conan stories, which the Handbook reaffirm as part of Earth-616's history. Also, the Council of Sky-Fathers entry acknowledges that these references were to previous incarnations of the Asgardians. The people of Nordheim, Cimmeria's neighbors to the north, worshipped and invoked these deities, and they also worshiped Ymir and his supposed first-born, his daugther Atali. SSOC#141 reveals legends of Ymir defeating vampiric entities. Conan lived at 10,000 BCE. An issue of Conan the Adventurer noted that when the Atlanteans lived the descendants of the Nordheimr "lived far away", and an article in Savage Sword of Conan speculates that the people of Thule of Kull's time were the ancestors of the Nordheimr. Conan lived around 10,000 BCE. Due to the concept of recurring Ragnaroks, these would represent previous iterations of the Asgardians (as the Council of Sky-Fathers entry in the recent Handbook acknowledges.)

The history of the Nordheimr continued as Ulysses Bloodstone and the Maha Yogi were Nordheimr from around 8,000 BCE. Later, Nordheimr and Cimmerians immigrated to the area around the Vilayet Sea, later the Caspian Sea, to found the Aryan civilization. The story in Supernatural Thrillers#1 suggests that Ymir worship continued into the post-Conan but pre-Aryan era since the protagonist Niord Worm's Bane invokes Ymir several times. However, the letters page to Supernatural Thrillers#3 or #5 as I recall suggests that Niord Worm's Bane may even have taken place before the time of Kull. The worship of the Asgardians by human beings began at some point after 18,500 BCE. (The first vampire, Varnae, immune to post-Thurian era gods, once stated that he saw the Asgardians emergence "gnaw its way up upon the bones of the old gods' civilization" in MCP I#63.) The cosmic entity the Unbeing while impersonating the other cosmic entity Origin claimed that Origin had directed the Asgardians to seek out Earth in Quasar#18 or so.

The periodic cycle of Ragnaroks continued. One such cycle happened around 7 BCE to a version of Asgard with a red-haired Thor per Thor I#293. Their counterpart of Odin was also known as Wode, and was worshipped by the Franks in the area that later became Bavaria per Doctor Strange III#37. The Franks held sacrificial jousts in which those warriors slain would gain the honor of joining Wode on the Wild Hunt in the sky. This Asgard went down in flames; evidently, it served as part of the phenomenon later called the Star of Bethlehem which attended the birth of the Christian/Muslim prophet Jesus of Nazareth. Vidar, Balder, Hoenir, Vali, Villi, Ve, Modi and Magni (Thor's sons), and a few other gods of this iteration of Asgard who survived this Ragnarok emerged to find the spear of the prior Odin. Grasping it, they were transformed/merged into a new Odin, who created a new Asgard. Accounts differ as to whether the new Asgardians actually had childhoods (Thor: Son of Asgard) or Odin implanted them with false memories of pasts and childhoods that never happened (Thor I#294). At some point before the birth of Thor, Odin thwarted the rebellion of Rimthursar (Thor I#323 or so). Evidently, memories of the past Asgard remained among men, as a man around 200 CE in pre-Arthurian Britain invoked Woden and Thor (Savage Sword of Conan#106/2, "Men of the Shadows).

Odin mated with Gaea to produce the new pantheon's Thor, who has blond hair (Thor I#294 [Gaea in shadows], Thor I#301, Thor Annual#11).

Most of Thor's chronologically early adventures take place around 1000 CE such as his battles against Marduk, Grylak, Varnae, Dromedan, and Atlantean mummies animated by Loki. Thor's battle with Hercules in Thor Annual#5 presented a problem, as since Hercules was leading Greek soldiers who worshiped the Olympian gods, while the Codex Theodosius had banned the worship of the Olympian gods centuries before 1000 CE, that seemed to indicate this adventure took before the Codex Theodosius was passed around 400 CE. However, Thor I#300 and the Handbook entries for Zeus and perhaps Hercules indicate that these Greek soldiers were actually brought forward into the future by Hercules. Also, Thor I#300 establishes that his battle happened around 1000 CE, when Odin joined with Zeus and Vishnu to oppose the Celestials. Dwarfed by their power, Odin resolved to oppose the Celestials for their next host. Odin thus created the magical robot the Destroyer. Odin later had the Valkyrie and Thor live on Earth as mortals in a series of events that he later wiped from their minds, though he would admit to this brainwashing centuries later to the Valkyrie in Defenders I#109. During this time, Thor slew the giant Fafnir, who had transformed into a dragon. (A man named James Allison once incorrectly believed that the story of Fafnir slaying the dragon was only a "racial memory" of a conflict that he had had in his past life as Niord Worm's Bane.)

Thor Annual#8 presented a problem, too, since the blond Thor was accidentally sent to the time of the Trojan war and encountered Zeus, who recognized him-even though Thor I#293 would indicate that if any Thor existed then, it would have been the red-haired Thor, as the Trojan War happened long before 7 BCE. The letters page to Thor I#298 and Zeus' Deluxe Edition Handbook entry indicate that Zeus knew about Thor thanks to his oracles and their power of prophecy.

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Regarding the history of the Heliopolitan deities, Seth has, as I recall, in Thor I#240-241 and circa Thor I#400, as well as perhaps Osiris in Thor I#301, asserted a great age for the Heliopolitan pantheon that places them as existing before the Asgardians. The history of the Heliopolitans becomes convoluted when one considers that the land that became Egypt in Conan's time went by the name of Stygia. They largely worshiped Set the Serpent God (not the same entity as Seth brother of Osiris; Seth usurped Set's worshipers). However, some of them did worship Isuus and Ibis. The Official Handbook tentatively acknowledges Ibis and possibly identical to Thoth.
Matt Platis
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Post by Matt Platis »

I have been hesitant to step in here because I do not want to fan any flames and make it look like I am taking sides here but I feel like I should say something.

I think we have all said our piece here. Whether we agree or we disagree, it has gone past the original discussion. So let us end it here.
~Matt
Matt Platis
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Post by Matt Platis »

I don't mean that we cannot discuss the original topic. That we can certainly do.
~Matt
E_Martin
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Post by E_Martin »

Odin thus created the magical robot the Destroyerr
The Destroyer is certainly *not* a robot, as it requires bein inhabited by a living soul in order to work and, in some ocasion, that soul has been conscious and even able to control its actions.

Blasphemy! Heresy! Stan Lee's wrath shall rain upon thy like a river of wild fire! The skies shall darken and the land shall split open!

(ahem... unless you were talking about Earth-2598's Destroyer?)
Erk Lazer
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Post by Erk Lazer »

You all have just too much free time on your hands!!
Paulo Pereira
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Re: THOR: THE TRUTH OF THE HISTORY

Post by Paulo Pereira »

Erk Lazer wrote:You all have just too much free time on your hands!!
That's your first post?
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