Who's been watching Comics Britannia on BBC FOUR?

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bignige
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Who's been watching Comics Britannia on BBC FOUR?

Post by bignige »

Alan / forumites, just incase you weren't aware of it.
http://bristle.wordpress.com/2007/09/06 ... n-on-bbc4/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/comicsbrit ... nnia.shtml
It's been on for a few days, although they seem to be repeating parts of it on a daily basis. As well as the 3 part series, the search for Steve Ditko is showing too.
Vyrt
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Post by Vyrt »

I hate to sound rude, but I really thought Steve Ditko had died a while back so I was surprised when Jonathan Ross went in search of him.
It's good to know that he is still around even if he did act a little strange over the interview and photographs.
It's probably old Rossy's fault. He probably said he wanted to 'rank him among the worlds greatest comic srtists' and Ditko took it the wrong way.
I missed the first few minutes so I hope they do show it again.
Bluemeanie
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Post by Bluemeanie »

I thought the last part was HORRIBLE.

Yeah, Viz shoulda got a mention, but to be given about 4 times the air time of 2000AD? Disgraceful.

And Mr Moore's dramatic reading of Watchmen.... gotta be honest it made me cringe. And most of it seemed to be the makers going "Look at us, we can swear and show the dirtiest parts of Lost Girls"


Part one with the god-like Leo Baxendale was brilliant though, even if they never mentioned my 3 pride of place Willy the Kid annuals.
Captain 616
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Post by Captain 616 »

I would have liked to have seen this series extend another show into the 1990s, with the decline period for British comics, the loss of Marvel UK, and the like. Not in a car crash kind of way you understand, more in a proper exploration. What we had here, instead, pretty much comes across as "The 80s gave us some great stuff, then everybody went and did graphic novels instead, and lived happily ever after..." It seems so odd to cover the decline of the Beano and Dandy in such detail, but not the other side of the coin.
Alan Davis
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Post by Alan Davis »

I didn’t watch the programme but my brother taped it so I may get round to seeing it in the near future.

I have to say that in my experience the majority of TV coverage about comic tends to be by presenters looking for gimmick to promote themselves as wacky/eclectic/cutting edge—it used to be Cult ‘B’ Movies and Japanese game shows -- and, as much of TV is today, the freakier the better.

I have been a lifelong Ditko fan and admire the fact he has shunned celebrity (for whatever reason). His work speaks for itself and being interviewed on a TV show isn’t going to change that. I’m sure there are those who would love to have seen a wild-eyed recluse or some other freakish stereotype but maybe he’s just a regular guy who said ‘no thanks’ to unwanted publicity because he is living the life he wants to live.

I would imagine the reason British comics of the 80’s weren’t given due attention is because to put Marvel UK and Warrior in their proper place in history would entail giving Paul Neary and Des Skinn (along with their assistants and supporters) due credit for all the work they did in creating the platform used by UK creators to be noticed by US companies. Old grudges and petty politics!

Alan
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Post by Captain 616 »

Grudges and politics, maybe. But that does not make them invalid ones.

So it might just be my own personal opinion, but if you're making a documentary series on the British Comic Book industry that would be a pretty strong 'story' to cover. I felt that the way in which this third part of the series skated over most of Warrior, certainly Marvel UK, and other notable publications - such as Crisis as a personal favourite - was greatly disappointing. Sure they deservedly covered Alan Moore and Alan Grant, and Des Skinn at least made and appearance, but I just think that here we are with a a US comic book industry with so many of its major players, artists, writers and inkers, being British that some kind of coverage would have made sense.

No mention of the likes of Grant Morrison, Mark Millar, Neil Gaiman, Garth Ennis, Mike Carey, or a certain artists/writer who just happens to be the focus of this forum seems greatly odd to me, and somewhat of a wasted opportunity. To merely look at the list of talent Paul Neary had assembled on Marvel Uk's books at the time of its demise is to look at some of the biggest names in modern comic book art, now. To me that too is more than worthy of a mention.

The Jonathan Ross documentary on Steve Ditko, which appeared as part of the season, on the other hand was worthy of praise. Largely because you get the feeling that everybody involved with it, and everybody interviewed for it, was genuinely enthused with Ditko's work. And of course watching Jonathan Ross and Neil Gaiman trying to get an interview with Ditko himself was also greatly entertaining.
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Post by Alan Davis »

Grudges and politics, maybe. But that does not make them invalid ones.


I’m not sure I understand what you mean here. Do you believe the grudges and petty politics are valid?
My point was that Paul Neary and Des Skinn are not given the credit they deserve. Paul’s contribution is more easily ignored because he has always avoided the limelight whereas Des is a self publicist BUT the real issue is those creators who need to be seen as unique geniuses, self made saviours of the industry, who owe no thanks to anyone-- AND there are others who, in a desire to ingratiate themselves with said ‘geniuses’ perpetuate that rewritten history as gospel.

The cult of celebrity has been one of the most destructive forces in comics. It brought the worst out in the insecure and greedy already working in comics and also attracted the parasites who saw comics as a stepping stone to Hollywood. If you want to understand why people like Paul and Des are ignored you need to look at the big picture.

Any list of noteworthy creators is bound to be highly subjective. I love Ditko’s work (moreso than some of the other industry ‘gods’ who I won’t list here for risk of causing offence) but, though it baffles me, there are those who don’t rate Ditko.

That said, why should Ditko indulge the self serving host of a reality programme?

Alan
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Post by Captain 616 »

Alan Davis wrote:I’m not sure I understand what you mean here. Do you believe the grudges and petty politics are valid?
My point was that Paul Neary and Des Skinn are not given the credit they deserve.
That was in fact the point I was trying to make, also. However, reading back over my post I can confirm that opening comment was deeply confusing/confused, compared next to the rest of the post. My apologies. I am currently living through day 16 of of 16 straight 10 and a half hour working days, and it would appear that I am not quite as coherent as perhaps I had hoped I was. :)

I think it is a great shame that Paul Neary in particular does not get a more public mention for his role. Des Skinn will always be mentioned and remembered for Warrior, through the likes of V for Vendetta. But in particular Neary should be thanked for bringing a number of British and European artists to a Western audience for the first time. Names like Salvador Larocca or Carlos Pacheco became Marvel success stories in the late 90s, and more recently there's been Britain's own Jim Cheung (Although, sadly, he never got anything published before the end of the imprint), but it was through Marvel UK that they first came to light with the American editors. I look back at the names on the books of that imprint, now, and wish the 90s had been a kinder climate for comics. As EiC of Marvel UK Neary had gathered some incredible talent together, and much as though a number have gone on to do bigger and better things, I really wish we'd have had the chance to see more of what they could do before moving on.

I will say one thing I did gain from watching the Ditko programme, though. It has made me interested in looking further into his work on Mr A. Some of the artwork shown on the programme intrigued me, greatly. And I suppose that if any programme on comics as a medium inspires a viewer to look further into something it can't be all bad.
bignige
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Post by bignige »

Alan Davis wrote:I have been a lifelong Ditko fan and admire the fact he has shunned celebrity (for whatever reason). His work speaks for itself and being interviewed on a TV show isn’t going to change that. I’m sure there are those who would love to have seen a wild-eyed recluse or some other freakish stereotype but maybe he’s just a regular guy who said ‘no thanks’ to unwanted publicity because he is living the life he wants to live.

I would imagine the reason British comics of the 80’s weren’t given due attention is because to put Marvel UK and Warrior in their proper place in history would entail giving Paul Neary and Des Skinn (along with their assistants and supporters) due credit for all the work they did in creating the platform used by UK creators to be noticed by US companies. Old grudges and petty politics!

Alan

I'm pretty sure Dez Skinn was on it. To be honest Comics Britannia was pretty much comics by numbers and didn't veer too much from the usual fare. Pretty predictable really.
Still, if it's taped you may as well watch it! I missed the 'in search of moebius' program though...
Alan Davis
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Post by Alan Davis »

I finally got around to watching the Ditko programme and initially thought I may have to revise my opinion based on the preview I had seen. Ross announced that the ‘Documentary’ was his most personal and the first five or ten minutes of the programme were informative and entertaining-- and although the inclusion of a few ‘friends’ to add their tributes was an unnecessary distraction it was more than compensated for by the interviews with comic creators and editors who actually knew Ditko. But then Ross’s pals, Gaiman and Moore, were allowed to indulge in gossip and speculation-- as if their reputations gave the rumours some sort of credibility. Things got progressively worse when in a display of pure hypocrisy, Ross, who claimed one of the programmes purposes was to show how Ditko had never received his due credit as co-creator on Spiderman, referred to Moore as the creator of Watchmen-- ignoring any contribution by Dave Gibbons. The programme got progressively more ludicrous when the self proclaimed ‘writer and magician’ related another second hand anecdote which seemed to suggest Ditko was deluded and, in the final nauseating segment, Ross and Gaiman ignore Ditko’s request to be left alone. Are we all supposed to follow these self absorbed buffoons example and hound anyone we decide we need to meet? We are told that Ditko responded to their vulgar intrusion of his privacy with good grace and kindness. That doesn’t make their actions any less offensive but it does show that Ditko, rather than being ‘strange’ or difficult, is a person of profound principle and decency.

Alan
Row
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Post by Row »

To be perfectly honest, I was disappointed with nearly all the programmes in the Comics Brittania season.

The main title programme itself had that undertone of sneering at the medium for my taste, rather than celebrating it.

The only decent interviews in the whole series were with Leo Baxendale...and the interviews, with a few extras are posted ( or were, not sure if they've gone now) on the BBC 4 website. While it was interesting to learn of Mr Baxendales' reasons for leaving IPC, I really wanted to see more of what he did afterwards...such as Willy The Kid, but alas they never covered that ( great books that cracks me up whenever I read them).

The Mobieus programme was slighty more interesting on the whole. Covering both his comic work and his film production work. The main point of interest was his description of how he works and draws what he draws.

The 'Oor Wullie' Programme was very interesting, dealing with the influence of Scottish culture and how it was represented in the heart of the strip, and geniune warmth expressed by the people interviewed about what the strip meant to them, rather than the usual mocking that most programmes take when covering most comic related things.

As for the Ditko programme, well, what was the point?...Except to maybe rub Johnathan Ross's already overly inflated ego.
Apart from a few decent sound bites from people that actually worked and know Mr Ditko, why refer to hand me down stories with possible spin attached?

As for the dreadful disregard for Mr Ditkos' privacy, especially after he'd expressed he wasn't interested in talking to Ross......That was just simply unforgivable....How would Mr Ross like it if some numpty turned up at his home and basically forced their way through his door?

To use an example, I was heading to the link bus for this weekends Birmingham Comic Show, My nephew was with me ( he's a big Alan fan too), and on the way there I saw Mr Davis and his wife walking towards us. I pointed out to my Newphew who the couple were, but it never once entered my mind to 'hassle' or 'pester' Mr Davis on the street, All I did was nod, say hello and smile as we passed by , because both Alan and his wife are entitled to their privacy.
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Alan Davis
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Post by Alan Davis »

Thank you for your consideration, Row. I hope I noticed you to return the nod and smile… And for future reference it wouldn’t have been a hassle to stop and chat for a few minutes. Its not in my nature to seek attention and, like most comic artists, my working days have pretty substantial periods when I’m in total isolation, so going to a convention is a shock to the system BUT the way I see it if professionals don’t attend and participate in a convention neither will the fans.
As for the Ditko programme, well, what was the point?...Except to maybe rub Johnathan Ross's already overly inflated ego.
The majority of people I spoke to at Birmingham seemed to agree that Ross’s behaviour was inexcusable and the one or two people who said they thought Ross’s ‘documentary’ was worthwhile had known nothing about Ditko prior to the programme (poor culture starved youths)-- so the show did indeed have some value. In my opinion it was the inclusion of Ross’s chums that destroyed any integrity the programme might have had. IF Ross had intruded on Ditko on his own it would have been just as offensive BUT the fact he needed a sidekick made the encounter seem cowardly and aggressive.
Apart from a few decent sound bites from people that actually worked and know Mr Ditko, why refer to hand me down stories with possible spin attached?
Especially as the snide, self-serving attacks wouldn’t have been tolerated if the discussion had they been about an artist’s sexual orientation or religion. I have read only a small amount of Ayn Rand and can only speculate as to Ditko’s beliefs true beliefs BUT he has certainly behaved with more honour and integrity than the egotistical hypocrites who criticised him.
Also, surely the terrific scene of Spiderman escaping from under the machine, praised during the programme, was as much a product of Ditko’s philosophy as the MR A strips. That same philosophy must also have influenced his work ethic and the artistic development which resulted in the extraordinary art all true Ditko fans admire. Would his critics have felt more comfortable if, as some speculated, Ditko’s work was the product of drugs?

As for the dreadful disregard for Mr Ditkos' privacy, especially after he'd expressed he wasn't interested in talking to Ross......That was just simply unforgivable....How would Mr Ross like it if some numpty turned up at his home and basically forced their way through his door?
I totally agree. They looked like a pair of ninnies getting ready to play knock door run. Would they have been so courageous if Mr Ditko was a gun totting NRA supporter?

Alan
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