About digital work...

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DungeonmasterJim
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Post by DungeonmasterJim »

Alan Davis wrote:Inking may have originated as a publishing necessity but the real strength of the comic form emerged because generations of artists adapted to that necessity by developing a singularly raw and immediate visual style.

Alan
But can't this same line of thinking be applied to digital inking given time? I could be wrong in this line of thinking but right now most digital inking seems to be just playing with 'curves' or contrast/brightness in Photoshop and some cloning and flip-flopping of images. That doesn't seem very artistic to me but in 15 to 20 years, who knows what digital inking could become?

DM Jim
DungeonmasterJim
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Post by DungeonmasterJim »

Entropy and MiG:

Just want to thank you guys for a civil discussion without flaming or insults. That happens all to often in other forums. It's intelligent discussion that can teach me new things and maybe change my view on things as opposed to someone just shouting at me.

I should state that I do like pen and paper inking and all of my comics and most of my drawings are done in traditional inking using pens and brush. I also have a Deviantart website but most of my stuff there is older. I'm there as DungeonmasterJim. :)

I don't think traditional inking will ever die but I can see it taking a backseat to digital inking because of economical reasons and technology advances making it easier for people of varying skill levels to produce comic artwork.

The artists cited by all are some of the best artists out there. They are terrific examples of the tops in their field and most are my favorite inkers also. By they are also the best of the best. If there weren't these top artists to cite by example I would think that the majority of the traditional to digital inking argument would be moot and people wouldn't care. This is why I believe traditional inking will become more of a specialty skill in comics instead of being a regular feature in the art in most books.

I guess a lot of my view on traditional inking comes from my experiences in real life. When I went to college my college was just getting into using computers every day for graphic design. I've also had many a job lost through lay-off's forcing me to adapt to new circumstances to stay employed. As much as I would like them not to, things changes (Like Mr. Davis leaving 'classic' Excalibur :evil: ). Sorry if that sounded like a sermon, it was only meant to explain why I have certain views on things.

DM Jim
JohnnyBoyB
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Post by JohnnyBoyB »

Hmm... Once again, I'm amazed at the amount of replies originated by this topic. I guess I really toched a controversial matter here.

Anyway, I'm back to inform all of you guys about my "digital" development since my last reply. I feel it's important to this discussion, giving a more "newbie hands-on" feel to the conversation than it would have otherwise...

Alan Davis wrote:
(...)from my experience of making images with non-digital media I would say it is impossible for the limitations and easy options of the digital medium not to affect artistic development.(...)
I'm not sure I agree. I have been trying to adapt to this new way of drawing and, while I'm still in infancy stages, I have to say that most of the work I've done - without some details that are related to the lack of proficiency with the tablet, which I hope will disappear soon - looks exactly like things I did and would do on paper. I think with a couple of weeks it will feel like second nature. Right now, there are pen tablets on the market, like the Wacom Intuos3, that have a paperlike feel. And since I pencil my own artwork the way I would normally do, the "limitations" of the digital medium are almost the same of the paper medium, and there aren't that many "easy options" to take advantage of. At least, not the way I'm doing things right now.

Row wrote:
For me the technology of programs such as PhotoShop et al will always be behind what can really be achieved on paper or canvas.
For about 95% of digital art, I'd agree with you, Row. But, like any new art form, the digital medium is creating its new masters, who create artwork as good or even better than things done on paper. I guess everything deserves a chance. It's only a matter of time.
(...)the user doesn't learn anything from them, much like tracing a photo of a person as opposed to drawing it from the ground up, you don't learn anything about the forms and how clothes wrap around a figure from tracing, because an important part...the underlying structure... is removed from the process.(...)
Not necessarily. A teacher once gave me an interesting exercise: trace a picture AND draw it separatelly. Then compare the two. You can learn A LOT with this simple exercise!

MiG wrote:
Many I've been in contact with have actually stated that they've chosen the digital way because it's, once you've learned the tricks, in actuality a lot easier than trying your hand at real ink. One of the absolute advantages inking with a computer has is that you can redo it into infinity. When you ink by hand, depending on what you're working with, you have to get it right the first time since there is no second time in a lot of cases so you really have to know what you're doing.
Time to be honest here. The possibility of erasing your mistakes was exactly what attracted me to inking done digitally in the first place. The fact is, I'm an epilleptic, and I have to be on medication on a daily basis, probably for the rest of my life. And my medication makes my hands shake. This is bad enough for pencils, which I can erase, let alone ink. That's why I've decided to try digital ink. The fack that you can simply click undo is a gift for me. But I agree that most digital ink feels cold and inhuman. But I feel that happens because most of the time it's done by line manipulation, instead of using a pen tablet like it were a normal pen. I've tried it and, while I've yet to learn a lot about inking, it didn't feel very digital in the end. The idea that now I can ink my own work is awesome!

Finally:

DungeonmasterJim wrote:
Just want to thank you guys for a civil discussion without flaming or insults. That happens all to often in other forums.
I hear you, Jim. I know exactly what you mean. It's ridiculous how sometimes a simple subject can generate controversy and get to a point where everyone is insulting the next guy's mother. Thank it didn't happen here, or I'd feel responsible for originating it in this topic.

Until next time.
MiG

Post by MiG »

Yes I can well understand that it can be a huge problem if you suffer from something like that, a friend of mine while not having the same dilemma still has a hard time controlling his hands and he says about the same thing as what you mentioned here so of course it can be an advantage. It wasn't anything like that that I was aiming for but more of the general concept about digital art as such. In some cases it is better and I actually do enjoy fractal and 3d art a lot since I think these two aspects among a few more are the true strong points in the area, they're art- forms unique for the media.

But perhaps since I am above all a traditional artist I state my point of view from a more subjective angle to the topic. I also do know what it takes to excel in the traditional media and I might sometimes be a little too blunt in my views since I'm always judging things from a very high level. What might to everyone else be a final rendition of a piece I've made is often just a sketch for me so my perspective can be a little too strict ( nope, no bragging, just a statement ).

And of course a discussion can be civil ;) I too loath the type of flame- boards where people behave like idiotic morons and do not respect the other person's who frequent them and takes part in the on- going discussions. Everyone's entitled to an opinion and the choice to voice them without being subject to small petty insults. And like you said, there's always something to learn from interaction with others of different minds :)
Alan Davis
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Post by Alan Davis »

Jim you are of course exactly right that digital inking (as was the case with digital lettering) will inevitably become the industry standard because it is quicker and cheaper.

Technological intrusion into ‘traditional’ art has parallels in the music industry where image is now all that counts because any voice, no matter how useless can be made to sound at least competent with the right digital enhancement.

In my experience digital inking in comics is actually about giving the colourist artistic control. I don’t believe most colourists are up to the task but even if they were; there isn’t enough time in the schedule for even a good colourist to sustain quality work; comics don’t pay enough to make it worthwhile; and the printing quality often isn’t good enough either. So what we actually get is blackline art obscured by effects that will survive the printing process and make it appear that the colourist has added ‘something’. Worse still pencillers, including myself, have to draw defensively trying to anticipate what the colourist might mess up.

I said in my first post on this thread that this is a massive subject and ultimately a matter of opinion. I prefer black-line art to colour because it is raw and immediate. As I said, a Hendrix guitar solo against a synthesizer version of the same tune. Although I accept there are people who would prefer the sanitised elevator musak version compared to that nasty loud guitar. Everything, including a traffic accident, will have an audience. Take a random selection of comics over the past twenty years and the direction of change is all too obvious.

I think the situation might be best summed up by the Bill Hicks sketch where Vanilla Ice pleads for talent but instead Satan lowers the expectations of the audience.

Alan
Row
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Post by Row »

Most of us who post here draw in some capacity or other...be that professionally, just for fun or somewhere between the two. I think the fact that this dicussion hasn't degenerated into churlish name calling or cheap barbs is a reflection of a mature group of people sharing information and exchanging ideas and points of view.

A civil discussion is always the best way to go about anything, everyone can share their views and opinions, I might not always agree with anothers point of view, but I always respect that persons viewpoint is valid to them, we all view the world from our own vantage point and this is reflected in the opinions we form.

Anyway, back to the discussion....


I've tried digital inking in the past as an experiment for myself, the biggest drawback I found was the constant changing of brush sizes to achieve the same line I could manually with a real brush, not to mention the loss of the spontaneity in the ink line.
My main use for my tablet at the moment is working out layouts and breakdowns and for roughing out image ideas, mainly to save wasting reams and reams of paper.
I'm not against artists using technology in regards to digital inking or producing artwork digitally, I still feel the actual program technology has a lot a lot of catching up to do in terms of replicating 'real' mediums that people traditionally use, for an example... Corel Painter 10

The oils part of the program is very nice to use, but why didn't they include a clean dry brush tool/effect for lifting and blending? surely they would be able to simulate something along those lines, instead of having to have a colour assigned to the brush tool.

Lol, thanks Alan......I now have that Bill Hicks sketch about 'the talentless ***** on their knees' running through my mind, Bill's sound effects and all.
When lady luck enters, get her a seat
Guillermo
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Post by Guillermo »

I have to agree here with mr Davis, if the inking proccess is part of a chain of work, like in US comics, the artist lose control in a small or big part, (depends of the inker), and digital inking gives a big part of the proccess to one person that is not the penciler.

But for some ways of understanding the drawing, nothing can have the strenght of line of an human hand. No matter how good the software be, because a program only does what you tell him to do.

Digital inking will be a standard in that industry? maybe, but that is not better. Maybe someday even pencils will be done by a software, maybe someday you can put your photoshop with a Corben filter and get your drawings with his style, but that will not be the same.

For me, drawing is a mix of the order in your brain and the chaos in your hand. You know what you want to do, its in your brain, but shuddenly your hand does not what you told it, instead of that it draws a strong line that can be better that what you had in mind, so you choose to let the drawing flow, or you keep it under control? That mixture is what makes each artist style, and i doubt any software can understand that ever.
Entropy
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Post by Entropy »

Some sort of record, this many posts without someone either loosing it or a troll. mmm...

i think that Mr. Davis put it best using the Hendrix description.
i prefer mediocre inkers to the majority of digital stuff i've seen. Hell, that medicocre inker may end up later being the next great inker.

While i think ultimately digital should have a place, i think what i fear is that most comic companies will go for the cheaper method and eventually put most traditional inkers out of business. It also bothers me that some people skip the traditional learning for the immediate pop factor of the digital stuff.

MiG,
I've never seen Alfredo Alcala's inking. Could you point me to some good examples?
RIP Kurt Vonnegut and Lloyd Alexander.

Insanity is all in the mind.
Alan Davis
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Post by Alan Davis »

I’m in total agreement with you Guillermo. Your terminology may be a little romantic perhaps but the idea of right brain/left brain conflict and all of the ‘happy accidents’ are exactly what make drawing fun.

MiG. For the best Buscema/Alcala check out Savage Sword of Conan. The issues have had a number of reprints but if you look for the stories-- People of the Black Circle-- Citadel at the Center of Time-- Iron Shadows in the Moon and Haunters of the Castle Crimson, you won’t be disappointed.

Alan
MiG

Post by MiG »

Ooo yes, I already have a couple of those but not the People of the Black Cirlce and Haunters of the Castle Crimson, got to check up on them. Thank you very much for the tip ;) Iron Shadows in the Moon is one of the best I think, made me quite uneasy when I was a kid and I read it over and over again just because of it :)

And yes, the 'happy accidents'is what gives it life and it's when they happen when you find new ideas to work into the piece. Sometimes you never know where or how it's going to end up. Fun indeed ;)
Guillermo
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Post by Guillermo »

Sorry for keep adding replys to the thread, but its quite interesting, but now that you talk about Buscema inkers, someone in that same convention asked John Buscema about his favourite inker.
His reply was:
-Myself.
JohnnyBoyB
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Post by JohnnyBoyB »

If I was John Buscema, I'd probably say that, too! He was one of the greatest!
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