Do you have a comic story or two that you...
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Do you have a comic story or two that you...
...direct readers to as the opitome of your skills?
And no cheating with 'all of my work on some level...'
DM Jim
And no cheating with 'all of my work on some level...'
DM Jim
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I don’t think it’s cheating to recognise that most creative ventures are ultimately unsatisfactory or do not fully meet the original aspiration so the reality is there are only ever ‘bits that work’. Trying to close the gap between aspiration and completion is the challenge. Having said that, as a rough summary I’d say the writing and plotting on Captain Britain gave me confidence to explore visual storytelling. The issues of Excalibur I wrote were highly enjoyable because Terry Kavanagh gave me so much encouragement and freedom-- and with the first arc (between #42-50) gave me a degree of additional satisfaction because so many readers thought the way I rationalised the mess of continuity into a story had been the intended conclusion from the first issue. The ClanDestine was all mine and as such most representative of my ‘philosophy of comics’. The Nail (both series) was an attempt to recapture the enthusiasm and passion I felt comics of my youth contained. Killraven, although it grew out of a desire to do a version of John Carter on Mars, evolved into something far more complicated but, perhaps ironically, very close to what I set out to create… so in that sense, Killraven is (as yet) the work I feel most creatively successful.
Now a question for you, Jim… you said in your ‘introduction, who are you?’ post—
[i]“I work at Strathmore Papers - we make the comic paper Marvel provides to it's artist. So in a really lame way, if Alan Davis gets his paper from Marvel (U.S.A.) I sorta help him make comics! I said it was lame!” [/i]
Now I don’t think this is lame at all because the paper I receive from Marvel has a huge impact on my working life. I spent years trying to find a paper stock to accommodate the sometimes contrary demands of pencilling and inking when I first started work in the UK without any success. 99.9% of the Strathmore stock is a joy to work on and might be taken for granted but for the occasional (very occasional) dud sheet that can really spoil my day. In one freak incident (while I was working on the FF with Scott Lobdell) the top right hand layers of a page separated part way through pencilling the page—so I had to start again. On a couple of other occasions I have encountered a ‘hollow’ between the layers—imperceptible until the pencil point punctured it—or conversely, a tiny grain of ‘something’ caught between the layers. As I say they are infrequent flaws but they have made me wonder about the process used to create the art board.
And no cheating with ‘it’s a trade secret...’
Alan
Now a question for you, Jim… you said in your ‘introduction, who are you?’ post—
[i]“I work at Strathmore Papers - we make the comic paper Marvel provides to it's artist. So in a really lame way, if Alan Davis gets his paper from Marvel (U.S.A.) I sorta help him make comics! I said it was lame!” [/i]
Now I don’t think this is lame at all because the paper I receive from Marvel has a huge impact on my working life. I spent years trying to find a paper stock to accommodate the sometimes contrary demands of pencilling and inking when I first started work in the UK without any success. 99.9% of the Strathmore stock is a joy to work on and might be taken for granted but for the occasional (very occasional) dud sheet that can really spoil my day. In one freak incident (while I was working on the FF with Scott Lobdell) the top right hand layers of a page separated part way through pencilling the page—so I had to start again. On a couple of other occasions I have encountered a ‘hollow’ between the layers—imperceptible until the pencil point punctured it—or conversely, a tiny grain of ‘something’ caught between the layers. As I say they are infrequent flaws but they have made me wonder about the process used to create the art board.
And no cheating with ‘it’s a trade secret...’
Alan
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Hmmn,... a quote from my profile.
I feel,...violated
On to the Strathmore Paper question
I asked around some of the old paper machine guys and here's what they told me.
The Marvel paper is 2-ply. What happens is that two rolls of paper are run through a machine and at one point, glue is applied to one side. The two seperate rolls of paper are then squeezed together making one thicker sheet (thus, the 2-ply) and passed through a heater to dry the paper. At some point it is also laminated. 3-ply and 4-ply are done the same way.
We get the paper cut roughly to the size of a two page spread. Each page is then put between two sheets of metal (think of cookie sheets for baking) and then the sheets protected by the metal are put into a machine. This machine has two heavy rollers about 18 in diameter and the paper is rolled back and forth compressing it to the 'plate' finish. Every sheet of paper with a plate finish is done by hand this way.
On a quick side note, supposedly a worker once got his arm sucked in between the rolls and crushed his arm pretty badly but I suspect that it's more of a fairy tale than the truth.
The paper, still sized about a two page spread, is sent out. From there, it gets the Marvel blueline details put on by an outside source, not Strathmore.
So, when the page you had started to separate at the corner it was either the lamination peeling off or the glueing process didn't take well on that particular sheet.
The hollow between the layers was an air bubble that wasn't smoothed out during the glueing process. I guess getting the air bubbles to smooth out is a pain in the butt.
The grain of something was probably exactly that, something that fell on to one of the two layers of paper during or before the glueing process.
The glueing process is done at a different facility so I haven't seen the machinery. But, I also use to assist in making printing plates for printing presses (formerly Ani-tec now Kodak Polychrome Graphics for those that might care). I'm going to guess that it's a vaguely similar process where the raw paper is is strung out along a series of rolls, usually called a web because it looks like one, and rerolled up into one giant roll at the end. The 'web' for cleaning, processing and applying the light sensitive coating for making printing plates was 800 feet long. I'm thinking the paper web was not quite as long though.
I'm trying to get Strathmore to pay for my visit to Wizard World Boston (about 90 minutes away from Strathmore) under the guise of 'research' via the artist alley but they aren't buying into it.
Jim
I feel,...violated
On to the Strathmore Paper question
I asked around some of the old paper machine guys and here's what they told me.
The Marvel paper is 2-ply. What happens is that two rolls of paper are run through a machine and at one point, glue is applied to one side. The two seperate rolls of paper are then squeezed together making one thicker sheet (thus, the 2-ply) and passed through a heater to dry the paper. At some point it is also laminated. 3-ply and 4-ply are done the same way.
We get the paper cut roughly to the size of a two page spread. Each page is then put between two sheets of metal (think of cookie sheets for baking) and then the sheets protected by the metal are put into a machine. This machine has two heavy rollers about 18 in diameter and the paper is rolled back and forth compressing it to the 'plate' finish. Every sheet of paper with a plate finish is done by hand this way.
On a quick side note, supposedly a worker once got his arm sucked in between the rolls and crushed his arm pretty badly but I suspect that it's more of a fairy tale than the truth.
The paper, still sized about a two page spread, is sent out. From there, it gets the Marvel blueline details put on by an outside source, not Strathmore.
So, when the page you had started to separate at the corner it was either the lamination peeling off or the glueing process didn't take well on that particular sheet.
The hollow between the layers was an air bubble that wasn't smoothed out during the glueing process. I guess getting the air bubbles to smooth out is a pain in the butt.
The grain of something was probably exactly that, something that fell on to one of the two layers of paper during or before the glueing process.
The glueing process is done at a different facility so I haven't seen the machinery. But, I also use to assist in making printing plates for printing presses (formerly Ani-tec now Kodak Polychrome Graphics for those that might care). I'm going to guess that it's a vaguely similar process where the raw paper is is strung out along a series of rolls, usually called a web because it looks like one, and rerolled up into one giant roll at the end. The 'web' for cleaning, processing and applying the light sensitive coating for making printing plates was 800 feet long. I'm thinking the paper web was not quite as long though.
I'm trying to get Strathmore to pay for my visit to Wizard World Boston (about 90 minutes away from Strathmore) under the guise of 'research' via the artist alley but they aren't buying into it.
Jim
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Thanks for a most comprehensive reply, Jim. I hope you don't mind a few additional questions.
If the Marvel paper is 2-ply does this designation include all of the layers--that is, are other layers added during the lamination process or is it just a hot press to give the 'plate' finish?
What are the different grades of paper used in the layering? In the sheet I had that split, there appeared to be inner layers that were more fibrous than the hot pressed (compacted) surface layer. Although this could have been a result of some other damage.
Do you have any idea of the type of glue (chemical or water based?) used in the gluing process?
Ta!
Alan
If the Marvel paper is 2-ply does this designation include all of the layers--that is, are other layers added during the lamination process or is it just a hot press to give the 'plate' finish?
What are the different grades of paper used in the layering? In the sheet I had that split, there appeared to be inner layers that were more fibrous than the hot pressed (compacted) surface layer. Although this could have been a result of some other damage.
Do you have any idea of the type of glue (chemical or water based?) used in the gluing process?
Ta!
Alan
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Sorry I haven't replied sooner. I'll see if I can get that info for you but it's a bit beyond my expertise. When International Paper bought Strathmore, IP closed all the nearby paper mills and built a new one half way across the country and that's where we get the bulk of our paper now. But I'm fairly certain our quality control or the older employees still at Strathmore should know.
DM Jim
DM Jim
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First, my apologies for taking so long with the following:
2 ply plate surface:
We take 2 rolls of our paper (same grade) and apply a water based paste between the sheets. It is than passed onto a cutter which cuts the sheets down to a workable size. Depending on the grade of paper say 500 we take the pasted 2-ply sheets and place them between metal plates and than under great pressure, pass them through large metal rollers. This is what gives it the shine/smoothness of the plate finish.
As for our 3 and 4 ply we would take to standard grades of paper and paste the premium paper to each side. 3 ply would have 1 sheet in between them and 4 ply would have 2.
As for 1 ply, naturally it would be just the single sheet that would be placed between the metal plates.
Corinne A. Shartrand
Quality Assurance Manager
That's pretty much what I said early but it's good to know that I got it correct the first time. Corinne has been working at Strathmore forever! And she use to be the supervisor of production too.
Does that anwser everything? I can always ask more questions and the feedback from artists does help. We hold monthly meetings that include quality among other things.
Thanks,
DM Jim
2 ply plate surface:
We take 2 rolls of our paper (same grade) and apply a water based paste between the sheets. It is than passed onto a cutter which cuts the sheets down to a workable size. Depending on the grade of paper say 500 we take the pasted 2-ply sheets and place them between metal plates and than under great pressure, pass them through large metal rollers. This is what gives it the shine/smoothness of the plate finish.
As for our 3 and 4 ply we would take to standard grades of paper and paste the premium paper to each side. 3 ply would have 1 sheet in between them and 4 ply would have 2.
As for 1 ply, naturally it would be just the single sheet that would be placed between the metal plates.
Corinne A. Shartrand
Quality Assurance Manager
That's pretty much what I said early but it's good to know that I got it correct the first time. Corinne has been working at Strathmore forever! And she use to be the supervisor of production too.
Does that anwser everything? I can always ask more questions and the feedback from artists does help. We hold monthly meetings that include quality among other things.
Thanks,
DM Jim
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Thanks for taking the time and trouble to get so much info, Jim.
I really can't think of anything else to ask and I certainly don't have any problems of complaints with the paper. I have only had a handful of noteworthy problems over fifteen or twenty years-- although there was a period of about a year, three or four years ago, when DC were using two different paper stock (one very smooth which inkers liked and one with a tooth that was great for pencilling) and Marvel had batches of paper that just didn't feel right around the same time. Not a scientific analysis but what do you expect from someone who has an intimate relationship with paper.
The paper I have had from Marvel for the past two years has been very good. It took me a while to find the most compatible lead because I'm pretty heavy handed and will also rework an image so I need a pencil that isn't hard enough to 'scar' the page (which can cause the ink lines to bleed) or too soft so as to smudge and loose the accuracy of the pencil art (and also clog up Mark's brush.)
Thanks again Jim
Alan
I really can't think of anything else to ask and I certainly don't have any problems of complaints with the paper. I have only had a handful of noteworthy problems over fifteen or twenty years-- although there was a period of about a year, three or four years ago, when DC were using two different paper stock (one very smooth which inkers liked and one with a tooth that was great for pencilling) and Marvel had batches of paper that just didn't feel right around the same time. Not a scientific analysis but what do you expect from someone who has an intimate relationship with paper.
The paper I have had from Marvel for the past two years has been very good. It took me a while to find the most compatible lead because I'm pretty heavy handed and will also rework an image so I need a pencil that isn't hard enough to 'scar' the page (which can cause the ink lines to bleed) or too soft so as to smudge and loose the accuracy of the pencil art (and also clog up Mark's brush.)
Thanks again Jim
Alan
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Paper
Hello Mr Davis
I was inking Stargate SG1,and the paper that we was using,was from Blue Line Pro( Not given by the publisher). I can´t remember having such a hard time,to ink and erase the pages.
Have you used it?
I know is of topic,but, about details of the artwork that kind of disapear when painted. (Let me take it of my chest
I happened to me. Crosshetch work erased and many details that I did as an embelishment was simply erased from my work by the colorist.
The art on those books is credited just for the penciler on the internet and I did inked it all .Cover and interior art. The credits goes only on the interior of the books,so it makes me fell like some ghost artist.
Please let know what you think.
I have great respect for inkers, specialy for mr Mark Farmer and Mr Paul Neary.
I was inking Stargate SG1,and the paper that we was using,was from Blue Line Pro( Not given by the publisher). I can´t remember having such a hard time,to ink and erase the pages.
Have you used it?
I know is of topic,but, about details of the artwork that kind of disapear when painted. (Let me take it of my chest
I happened to me. Crosshetch work erased and many details that I did as an embelishment was simply erased from my work by the colorist.
The art on those books is credited just for the penciler on the internet and I did inked it all .Cover and interior art. The credits goes only on the interior of the books,so it makes me fell like some ghost artist.
Please let know what you think.
I have great respect for inkers, specialy for mr Mark Farmer and Mr Paul Neary.
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Some of the Blue Line Pro paper is from Strathmore but not all of it. Also, there are different grades of paper so I'm sure that's probably part of the problem.
I can remember buying some Blue Line pro paper before I started working at Strathmore and it was fiarly horrible paper. It couldn't have been a quality paper by any means because I could almost see through it and it tended to curl badly after any amount of ink was put on it. So I never bought that kind of paper again.
Not sure if that helps any.
DM Jim
I can remember buying some Blue Line pro paper before I started working at Strathmore and it was fiarly horrible paper. It couldn't have been a quality paper by any means because I could almost see through it and it tended to curl badly after any amount of ink was put on it. So I never bought that kind of paper again.
Not sure if that helps any.
DM Jim
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Jim, have you ever heard of something called PHOCAL board. Paul Neary introduced me to it when I first began to work in comics and I bought a supply every time I visited Paul in London from a nearby art supplies shop. After eighteen months, the shop ran out of stock. They planned to reorder until it was discovered they had no record of the name Phocal-- so there was no way to locate the original supplier or the correct name if the stock had been mislabelled. It was the best paper I ever worked on.
Silvio, I sympathise with your plight because my (and Mark Farmer’s) work has also suffered at the hands of the current crop of colourists. On occasion I have tried to negotiate an improvement but if the colourist is an Alex Ross wannabe or the editor is the sort who counts the number of fades and glows on a page as a sign of artistic quality you can’t win. The most irritating thing is that some colourists hold the moronic belief that the image they create on a screen can be reproduced in print—possibly with magazine quality printing but not on a comic budget. Then, when they are confronted with the reality of their murky modelling, they blame the printer. Ultimately the Penciller and inker are at the mercy of the colourist because they are last in the chain and, because the penciller is working at least two months ahead of the colourist a lot of work can be butchered while you wait to see any work in print. The root problem to my way of thinking is that the penciller and inker are primarily concerned with storytelling while the colourist is often attempting to use an extremely limited bag of tricks to appear like an illustrator. I don’t know if it is possible to combat that sort of blind ego-- My solution was to quit.
Silvio, I sympathise with your plight because my (and Mark Farmer’s) work has also suffered at the hands of the current crop of colourists. On occasion I have tried to negotiate an improvement but if the colourist is an Alex Ross wannabe or the editor is the sort who counts the number of fades and glows on a page as a sign of artistic quality you can’t win. The most irritating thing is that some colourists hold the moronic belief that the image they create on a screen can be reproduced in print—possibly with magazine quality printing but not on a comic budget. Then, when they are confronted with the reality of their murky modelling, they blame the printer. Ultimately the Penciller and inker are at the mercy of the colourist because they are last in the chain and, because the penciller is working at least two months ahead of the colourist a lot of work can be butchered while you wait to see any work in print. The root problem to my way of thinking is that the penciller and inker are primarily concerned with storytelling while the colourist is often attempting to use an extremely limited bag of tricks to appear like an illustrator. I don’t know if it is possible to combat that sort of blind ego-- My solution was to quit.
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